Slaughterhouse-Five and Tortilla Curtain Book Circles
Please have at least two members of your book circle comment here about your latest meeting. You should report on the ideas your group discussed, as well as on the quality of your group process. Feel free to record questions your group was unable to answer, as students from the other AP Lit classes will be reading and responding to your comments. When you comment, please include both the title of your book and the pages you read for your last discussion. Please post your comments withing 24 hours after the book circle meeting.
In addition, at least two members of your book circle should visit the blogs of the other AP Lit classes and respond to their comments. Please complete this within 24 hours after the other students post.
http://lkleeman.blogspot.com
http://sale4th.blogspot.com
In addition, at least two members of your book circle should visit the blogs of the other AP Lit classes and respond to their comments. Please complete this within 24 hours after the other students post.
http://lkleeman.blogspot.com
http://sale4th.blogspot.com
posted by Cheryl Makovsky at 8:12 AM
19 Comments:
Book: Slaughter House FIve
After reading Chapters 1-3, we had many thoughts and ideas although many of our queries were unanswered or only partially satisfied. As Danait said we definitely delved into whether Billy Pilgrim is Vonnegut himself, but are uncertain. However, we also acknowledged that regardless of whether or not he is, names are extremely important. Beyond this, we also noted that theres seems to be an almsot anti-commercialism in Vonnegut's writing as he references Motor Cars, Coca-Cola and other well-known makers.
We also discussed the complacency with which Billy Pilgrim seems to approach war and just moving through time and life as with, it would seem, the Trafalmadore's philosphy mixed in his story-telling.
Furthermore, we mentioned that the war which Vonnegut describes does not contain many of the eager, dream-filled folks like Ronald Weary, but more often children and those hurled into it whether they like it or not regardless of how they appear to the other side. For example: the German Shepherd Princess. She's a farmer's dog.
Overall it was a fairly thorough and fast-paced discussion even if we have questions left until next time.
Katie-
We also noticed the importance of the dog, who from a distance sounded terrifying, but when it came closer, it was just a farm dog named Princess. Things always seem to look different from different sides and angles, like war. Some see that children are being sent, some don't. I think this will also tie into the whole eye motif, how things are different and the importance of vision, both physically and mentally.
Hi Slaughter House Five Group,
I'm glad you noticed Billy's complacency and how that seems to mirror the Trafalmadorian ideas. Try to figure out why Vonnegut put the aliens into his book and whether they express valid ideas or not. Billy seems to embrace their ideas, but does Vonnegut?
I'd like some more detail about specific topics and questions you discussed.
What is most frustrating or confusing about the book?
"So it goes" is important. What conclusions did you arrive at? I'm curious! This leads to very important ideas, so I hope you come back to this topic.
And hi to the Tortilla Curtain group as well!
I noticed how engaged you were with your conversation. You kept it going to the bell. That's one of the things I love about this novel; it really grabs you and makes you think about contemporary issues.
I'm glad you're talking about the themes of the novel. I hope you also study its artistic elements. The book is rich, with quite a bit going on below the surface.
Also, do you like Boyle's style?
Danait:
Our group also discussed "so it goes" and decided that the repetition of this saying represents that way that Billy, as someone who was almost accidentally in the war, tries to avoid reality, whether that be through his stories about the Tralfamadorians or his flashes into different spaces of time. We also questioned whether he was really kidnapped by the aliens or whether he created this whole situation in his head as a kind of metaphor for the war. We hope to find more answers in the following chapters, as well, as the beginning seems to only scratch the surface on ideas about the Tralfamadorians and Billy's experiences in the war.
Tortilla Curtain, Section 2
Today, my group talked about the literary techniques Boyle uses. We started with style. The novel is written in a very straightforward manner; it doesn't really leave the reader with many questions. We thought that Boyle wanted to do this to show how the world is focusing on the simple issues of immigration: illegal immigrants clogging our cities, taking jobs from Americans, and harassing us. However, there are many sides to the story. Not every illegal immigrant is bad, most just want to earn a decent living and support their families. It's not so black and white, and neither are the solutions. We also talked about motifs, mainly animals, cars, and walls. We thought the continual use of the uncivilized and savage coyote symbolized the Mexicans and the poor, innocent, tame dogs were the whites. The use of cars shows status. Walls and barriers are continually being built throughout the novel. The whites continue to try to keep bad things out. However, just the like coyote, if the people or animals want something, like the dogs, it's going to find a way to get it. And building a chain-link fence will only delay it.
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Book: Slaughterhouse Five
Reading: 4-5
Our group discussed many different aspects of the novel, but we still have many questions about some of the deeper meanings and layers of the book. One thing we noticed in particular was Vonnegut's direct mentioning of Sears Roebuck and Co. as the store of choice for the Tralfamadorians' furnishings of Billy's habitat. We wondered if this seemingly out of place name was to draw attention to a commercial aspect of Vonnegut's criticism. We also have been noticing parallels between Billy's war experiences and his experiences as a civilian after the war. Perhaps this is simply a commentary on Billy's inability to escape the war, even decades afterwards, but we are exploring a deeper symbolic meaning of each event. For example, Vonnegut writes about the colors orange and black describing the wedding tent of Billy's daughter and a description of the prisoner of war camp he stayed at during the war.
Nathan, greetings from Sale's class. Our group also noticed the mentioning of Sears in this section. We thought Vonnegut was criticising the mass production and assembly line aspect of culture, remarking that these aliens took notice of that aspect and used it for their benefit. I like your reference to similarities between Billy's war life and life afterward. I thought that maybe Billy's travels through time could also just be flashbacks. The similarities you talked about could be a mixture of time travel and simple war produced flashbacks. Perhaps these similarities don't really exist, but as Billy travels through time/remembers the past, he muddles details and creates these similarities himself. Just a thought.
In Response to Haley
Tortilla Curtain Pages 120-240
I agree with Haley on the importance of the motif of the wall. Our group found it ironic that Cándido’s father had told him “when you’re lost or hungry or in danger, ponte pared, make like a wall…Cándido was a wall, but the wall was crumbling (168). Cándido’s father tells him to put up a wall ironic because the Americans seem to take the advice. Like Cándido, the immigration wall is crumbling. I thought a very crucial scene in the book is when Delaney attends the gathering and jokingly asks “Next thing you’ll want to wall the whole place in like a medieval city or something” (189). The other guests do not believe that Delaney’s suggestion is really so far-fetched. They seem to be trying, like medieval communities, to protect themselves against invaders or as some characters believe to rid themselves of parasites symbolized by the immigrants in the story. Additionally, our group mentioned how Delaney seems to be moving away from his liberal ideology. It seems that he begins to abandon it because it does not hold true anymore. He was able to criticize the harsh treatment of immigrants when they did not impact his way of live, but now that they have possibly stolen his car he feels animosity against them. Boyle seems to be commenting on people’s belief in certain ideologies in which have no barring on their life. For example, one may support strict enforcement of a law until they themselves are in trouble and their accuser uses strict enforcement against them. Finally, I wanted to mention a certain scene, which shows the danger of confinement. After Jack Jr. sexual explicit dialogue about immigrants, Delaney rightfully remarks, “…it might keep them out, but look what it keeps in (224). Boyle illustrates that all different kinds of people can pollute a society. There are bad apples in every bunch and as civilized people we must not judge the masses on a few rotten individuals. What does everyone think about Kyra? She appears to be one of the most radical people in the story. She says, “…she wanted strength and impregnability” (160) when the fence is being built. Does she always have to be in control and does Delaney have no backbone to stand up to his wife?
Tortilla Curtain Response:
Section 2
Our group also talked about style, but went in a different direction. We focused on how Boyle switches back and forth between the characters from chapter to chapter. One of the conclusions we came up with in understanding this was that it shows how each of the characters are interconnected and can’t separate themselves from each other. Both races are intertwined.
From our discussion of how the style emphasizes their relationships, came the topic of the man with the baseball cap. He is the most distinct villain of the novel, harassing both Candido and America, as well as Kyra and Delany. Candido calls him a “half-gringo,” both Hispanic and white. Playing on this we discussed how he possibly represents the worst of both cultures.
Book: Slaughterhouse-Five
As we completed the novel, our group discovered that many of our suspicions were right. With phrases such as "so it goes" and the general complacent and casual attitude that Vonnegut expresses throughout the entire book truly emphasizes what we believe to be one of many amongst his criticisms. (I feel like I don't want to give everything away and just drop our conclusions out there. Oh well.) Vonnegut does not agree with the Tralfamadorians who, we believe, represent man but from an alienated perspective that we can truly see how foolish our apathetic approach to life can be.
Just to clarify from previous posts. Although Vonnegut definitely placed a lot of himself in the character of Billy Pilgrim, our group, in the end, concluded that he is not Billy Pilgrim. Billy Pilgrim is too vague and too pathetic (in my opinion). Also, as read in an obituary after the passing of poor Vonnegut, it remarks that Kurt Vonnegut often used Mr. Trout as his alter ego which seems to make far more sense when reading and discovering that Trout is writing a novel about a man abducted by aliens.
Our discussion was conclusive. We understand what Vonnegut criticizes and why as he seems to ridicule war, but even so our approach to it when we think it merely happens and we can't change anything. We can't just look for a snapshot to gain the big picture. Not to mention, our memories are so important. Vonnegut definitely wants us to take note of that as well.
P.S. the artimordia person is Katie Scroggs. Sorry for the confusion, Mrs. Makovsky and all!
Slaughter House Five
Final Discussion
As Katie already said, much of what we already had speculated about turned out to be true. Vonnegut criticizes humanity for its complacent attitude through Billy Pilgrim and also the Tralfamadorians. This criticism through the Tralfamadorians is especially effective because of the removed nature of the aliens. Vonnegut lures the reader into disagreeing with the Tralfamadorian and helpless perspective because of the ease the reader finds in disregarding an inhuman perspective. The "so it goes" narration of Slaughter House Five lulls the reader into a sense of awareness about apathy, especially about death and the repercussions of war. Vonnegut certainly utilizes many of his own experiences in the war to feed his novel, but our group ultimately decided that Billy Pilgrim represents the attitude of those displaced from war, even if they might be face to face with it.
Our group finished Slaughterhouse Five for yesterday's discussion. We decided that to best prepare for the open-question Tuesday writing, we needed to determine what Vonnegut was satirizing and why, and how he achieved getting his point across.
Satirists often use extreme or unrealistic events or characters to relay the meaning of their work. In Slaughterhouse Five, Vonnegut uses the Tralfamadorians. The Tralfamadorians mirror people who have no respect for human life--people who do not try to make things right, who do not care about the things that are wrong, and who do not feel emotion when things go poorly in their lives. This is what really helped us realize what Vonnegut was saying in "Slaughterhouse Five"--it is not an anti-war book. Vonnegut disagrees with the attitude of war; the attitude that human life is not precious. The novel is more anti-people who have succumbed to "desensitization" (as Eric put it).
In response to Sarah's post:
That was a n excellent way to put it! I think you nailed what Vonnegut is satirizing! The war is not the central focus of the novel. Rather, the effects on the people (or the lack thereof as you mentioned) are what Vonnegut is shedding light on. The lack of feeling in the story, highlighted by the repeated use of “so it goes” is really what we as readers should focus on.
Hello from Sale-land! In response to Nathan's group's final discussion on Slaughter House Five: Nathan, I totally agree with you about Vonnegut using the Tralfamadorians to criticize the war, as they would be easier to disagree with being aliens! Our group also discussed the significance of the Tralfamadorians, and we noticed how they don't feel, or show much emotion, thus revealing an apathetic view on death: the view Vonnegut doesn't want his readers to have.
As for your conclusion about Billy Pilgrim, I agree that he represents all men caught up in war, but we also saw something else. We noticed it was interesting how Billy Pilgrim and his friends in the war survived the bombings at Dresden, yet thousands of other men died in actual battle. We thought Vonnegut uses the fact that Billy lives to criticize also that often in war the people who live are not always the most deserving to live. He criticizes this by revealing Billy's weakness as a man through his "spaz" thoughts, his being a POW at Dresden, and his capturing by the Tralfamadorians. All these signify weakness in Billy, yet he lives through the war. I agree that Vonnegut uses the Tralfamadorians to teach us how not to view death, and how he uses Billy Pilgrim to reveal his criticisms about war and death as well.
I don't see an response for the final discussion for the Tortilla Curtain, I might just be missing it, but these are the main ideas that Mr. Sale's Tortilla Curtain group came up with during the final discussion for Tortilla Curtain. The main question we tried to answer during the discussion was why did Boyle end the novel the way he did? What purpose did he have for doing that? Our thoughts on that subject was to say that even though in America, and possibly the world, we have these strains between groups and the hypocritical actions of those groups, at the end of the day, the world is not without hope, that something good might still happen. We see this in Candido's hand reaching out to save Delaney during the mud slide. In this he might be showing how both good and evil are natural, that when placed in the toughest of situations, one will end up doing the right thing, but when left to do what you want in so-called good times, that is when the evil creeps in. We also saw the mudslide as cleansing. Often in nature, catastrophic events happen to cleanse away the old, opening up space and nutrients for new growth. Could this mudslide be a cleansing of the hate in America, so that afterwards these groups can mend relations? There was one more main topic that seemed to penetrate throughout our entire conversation and that was what is the difference between trying and achieving and intentions and actions? Is doing your best, but achieving nothing, an action that deserves the same respect as one who achieves? I think that is what Boyle is really getting at. For example, Candido tries really hard to provide for his family, yet doesn't achieve that, so at the end of the day, does it even matter how hard he tried if his family still has no food? Our group did not think that there is one answer to this specific question, but an answer for each person.
One aspect of Vonnegut's anti-war we seem to be skipping over is his image of the german people. They are described as "translucent" showing they are the unseen victims of war. This fits in with Christy and Nathan's idea that the tralfamadorians represent humans with their ambivalence for war and death. We likeswise don't care for our enemies. Vonnegut personifies the Germans as sensitive caring people when they complain to Billy about the condition of his horses. They are not the senseless murderers that enemies are portrayed to be.
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